This week, we’re joined by Alison Bazylinski, Assistant Curator at the Smithsonian National Postal Museum, to talk about a symbol of public service, the Postal Service uniform! We’ll learn more about the history of the uniform, how it’s changed over time to reflect societal trends, and more.
In this episode, our hosts Dale and Yasmine are joined by Alison Bazylinski, Assistant Curator at the Smithsonian National Postal Museum, to talk about the history of the Postal Service uniform. We’ll learn more about the importance of the uniform, and how it’s changed over time to reflect societal trends. We’ll also discuss the impacts of integrating women into the Postal workforce and more.
DALE PARSAN:
HEY, EVERYBODY. WELCOME TO MAILIN’ IT. THE OFFICIAL PODCAST OF THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, I'M YOUR COHOST DALE PARSON.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
AND I'M YASMIN DIGIULIO. IN THIS EPISODE, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT A SYMBOL OF THE POSTAL SERVICE THAT'S BECOME SYNONYMOUS WITH THE ORGANIZATION'S INTEGRITY, PROFESSIONALISM AND UBIQUITY, THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE UNIFORM.
DALE PARSAN:
FOR MORE THAN 150 YEARS, THE POSTAL SERVICES, ICONIC COLORS OF BLUE AND CADET GRAY UNIFORMS HAVE HELPED THE PUBLIC IDENTIFY MAIL CARRIERS AT WORK IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WAIT, DALE, THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS BEEN AROUND A LOT LONGER THAN 150 YEARS.
DALE PARSAN:
YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. BUT POSTAL UNIFORMS DIDN'T DEBUT UNTIL AFTER THE CIVIL WAR. THERE'S AN INTERESTING HISTORY BEHIND THAT AND A LOT OF COOLER STORIES THAT TIE POSTAL UNIFORMS TO LARGER TRENDS IN AMERICAN SOCIETY THROUGHOUT THE 19TH AND 20TH CENTURIES HERE TO TALK TO US ABOUT ALL THAT IS OUR EPISODES GUEST ALISON BAZYLINSKI. FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, ALISON HAS BEEN AN ASSISTANT CURATOR AT THE SMITHSONIAN NATIONAL POSTAL MUSEUM. ALISON, WELCOME TO MAILIN’ IT.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. IT'S EXCITING TO BE HERE,
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
ALISON, LET'S START OFF BY TALKING ABOUT YOUR WORK AT THE POSTAL MUSEUM. WHAT AREAS DO YOU SPECIALIZE IN?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
SO MY BACKGROUND IS IN MATERIAL CULTURE AND AMERICAN HISTORY. I REALLY SPECIAL AND SORT OF LATE 19TH AND EARLY 20TH CENTURY CULTURAL HISTORY. SO COMING TO THE POSTAL MUSEUM, I DIDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE A BACKGROUND IN POSTAL HISTORY, BUT BECAUSE MAIL IS TIED TO ALL ASPECTS OF AMERICAN LIFE, I'VE BEEN ABLE TO SORT OF DIG INTO AREAS THAT I'M INTERESTED IN. AND ONE OF THOSE AREAS IS CLOTHING AND UNIFORMS. SO THIS TIES INTO MY FORMER RESEARCH WHERE I LOOKED AT FABRIC AND CLOTHING AND HOW PEOPLE USE THEM AND HOW THEY CAN BE USED TO ARTICULATE IDENTITY, GENDER AND CULTURE.
DALE PARSAN:
GREAT. WELL, GIVEN YOUR AREA OF EXPERTISE, WE WANTED TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHY UNIFORMS IN GENERAL ARE SO IMPORTANT TO AN ORGANIZATION?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
UNIFORMS IN GENERAL, I THINK REALLY ARE TOO A SENSE OF IDENTITY. IT'S A VERY VISUAL SYMBOL THAT FOR MOST OF THE POPULATION IS JUST A IMMEDIATE RECOGNITION IN CLOTHING IN GENERAL I THINK IS SOMETHING THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO AND IT MAKES IT A REALLY GOOD WAY TO THINK ABOUT HISTORY AND TO KIND OF GET INTO ALL THESE OTHER AREAS, BECAUSE I WOULD SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF US WEAR CLOTHES EVERY DAY AND WE HAVE TO GET DRESSED. SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT AND THE WAY WE MAKE ALL THESE SNAP JUDGEMENTS YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF HARD NOT TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS WHEN YOU SEE SOMEONE. THAT'S HOW I LIKE TO THINK ABOUT CLOTHING AS A WAY TO STUDY HISTORY.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
THAT'S INTERESTING. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR THE POSTAL SERVICE SPECIFICALLY, IT ALSO SORT OF SYMBOLIZES THAT COMMITMENT TO PUBLIC SERVICE. THESE ARE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES THAT ARE OUT HERE WEARING THE UNIFORMS. AND I KNOW THAT THE POSTAL SERVICE UNIFORMS HAVE A LOT OF MEANING TO PEOPLE ACROSS THE US. YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE, ARE USED TO SEEING EVERY DAY JUST ABOUT, BUT IT WASN'T ALWAYS THAT WAY. WAS IT?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
NO. INITIALLY THERE WAS NO SET UNIFORM AND IN FACT PEOPLE WEREN'T ACTUALLY GETTING THEIR MAIL DELIVERED TO THEIR HOUSES. YOU WOULD GO TO YOUR NEAREST POST OFFICE. SO THAT MIGHT BE A TAVERN. IT MIGHT BE A GENERAL STORE OR IT WOULD BE SOME SUBSECTION OF A BUILDING. AND WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IN THE EARLY UNITED STATES, MOST PEOPLE WEREN'T IN CITIES, IT WAS PREDOMINANTLY A RURAL NATION. AND THE OTHER THING TO THINK ABOUT IS THAT PRIOR TO THE MID 19TH CENTURY, LIKE SAY 1840S MAIL WAS SUPER EXPENSIVE. SO LIKE A LOT OF WHAT PEOPLE WERE PICKING UP WERE ACTUALLY PAPERS BECAUSE NEWSPAPERS WERE REALLY CHEAP. SO PEOPLE WEREN'T SENDING AS MANY LETTERS UNTIL POSTER REFORMS, THE 1840S. SO YOU DON'T EVEN REALLY NEED A LETTER CARRIER UNTIL THAT POINT IN TIME.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT IN SOME OF OUR OTHER EPISODES OF THEPODCAST. IT'S THE TAVERNS THAT HOUSED POST OFFICES.
DALE PARSAN:
YEAH, NO, IT'S, IT'S INTERESTING TO REVISIT THAT AND, AND THAT KIND OF GENERAL IDEA OF WHERE THE NAME CAME FROM FOR A LETTER CARRIER. I COULD IMAGINE THAT WITH BUSINESSES DOUBLING AS POST OFFICES, IT, IT THEY'D BECOME OVERWHELMED AT A CERTAIN POINT AS THE COUNTRY, AS IT WAS AT THAT TIME, STARTED EVOLVING MAIL STARTED BECOMING MUCH MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. WHEN DID LETTER CARRIERS START COMING TO PEOPLE'S HOMES?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
SO WE GET THE FIRST FREE CITY DELIVERY SERVICE. SO ALL THIS IS STARTING IN CITIES WHERE YOU'RE GETTING PEOPLE, THE POSTAL CARRIERS COMING TO PEOPLE'S HOMES. AND THIS INITIALLY STARTS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO DURING THE CIVIL WAR. JOSEPH BRIGGS, A POSTAL EMPLOYEE, HE CLAIMED THAT HE THOUGHT OF FREE OF CITY FREE DELIVERY DURING THE WINTER OF 1862 TO 63 WATCHING WOMEN LOOKING FOR LETTERS FROM SOLDIERS AND EXPOSED THE COLD WHILE WAITING IN THESE LONG LINES. AND THIS IS SORT OF AN APOCRYPHAL STORY, BUT WE DO GET AN ACT OF CONGRESS IN 1863 THAT PROVIDES FREE CITY MAIL DELIVERY. SO INITIALLY IT'S 49 NORTHERN OFFICES AND THIS IS ABOUT 450 LETTER CARRIERS. AND THIS IS VERY POPULAR VERY QUICKLY. AND IN FACT, IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS REVENUES FROM FREE CITY DELIVERY ARE MAKEING OVER 10 TIMES ITS COST. SO THEY'RE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY FROM THIS. AND IT ALSO PROVIDES EMPLOYMENT FOR VETERANS COMING HOME FROM THE CIVIL WAR. SO THERE'S AN ADDED BENEFIT THERE AS WELL. SO WE FIRST SEE CITY LETTER CARRIERS BEGINNING TO WEAR UNIFORMS FIVE YEARS AFTER IT STARTS. SO IN 1868 ARE THE FIRST UNIFORMS.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
SO AT THAT TIME, WHAT DID THE UNIFORMS LOOK LIKE?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
SO IT WOULD'VE BEEN FAIRLY SIMILAR ACTUALLY TO WHAT MOST WORKING MEN, SORT OF MIDDLE CLASS MEN WOULD'VE BEEN WEARING. IT'S A, A SACK SUIT. SO WHEN WE SAY THAT IT'S A JACKET THAT ISN'T FITTED TO THE BODY AND THIS HAS SORT OF BECOME THE STANDARD UNIFORM OF CITY MEN. AND THERE'S A SHIFT LIKE AROUND 1830, WHERE PRIOR TO THAT MEN WERE VERY FITTED CLOTHING. AND THEN THERE'S THIS SHIFT TOWARD THE S SACK SUIT. SO IT'S A COAT THAT ISN'T PARTICULARLY FITTED, THEY'RE OFTEN MADE OF WOOL. AND IN THE CASE OF THE POST STILL UNIFORM YOU HAVE THIS, BUT IT IS DESCRIBED IN GREAT DETAIL BY THE POSTMASTER GENERAL. SO IT WAS A SINGLE BREASTED. SO ONE LINE OF BUTTONS SAT COAT OF CADET GRAY OR BLUE MIXED CADET CLOTH. SO SORT OF BETWEEN GRAY AND BLUE AND THE WAY THEY DESCRIBED IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE STORES YOU CAN GO OUT TO BUY THEM. THEY USE THESE VERY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS. SO THE CO EXTENDED TWO THIRDS, THE DISTANCE FROM THE TOP OF THE HIP BONE TO THE KNEE. AND THEY, THEY CONTINUE ON BY SAYING THERE'S A POCKET ON EACH SIDE. THERE ARE FLAPS TWO AND THREE FOURS TO THREE INCHES WIDE. AND THEN WITH PANTS IT'S SORT OF A, AN UNFITTED TROUSER AND YOU EVENTUALLY WILL GET MORE DETAILS ON THAT. AS THE YEARS GO ON, THEY ADD MORE DETAILS. AND IN ADDITION TO PANTS AND THERE'S ALSO A VEST. SO THINK ABOUT LIKE A THREE PIECE SUIT, LIKE THE PANTS, THE JACKET AND THE VEST. THEY ALSO HAD A CAPE AND A REVERSIBLE CAPE,
DALE PARSAN:
WAIT, WAIT A CAPE.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES.
DALE PARSAN:
IS MY DEFINITION OF A CAPE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY HERE. I'M THINKING OF SUPERHEROES.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
IT WOULD'VE BEEN MORE LIKE A WOOL CAPE FOR WARMTH, UNFORTUNATELY
DALE PARSAN:
I FEEL LIKE WITH CARRIERS HAVING TO DO THIS ON THEIR OWN, WAS THERE ANY SORT OF STIPEND AT THE TIME TO HELP THE AND PAY FOR THESE THINGS?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
THERE WAS NOT YOU DON'T ACTUALLY SEE A STIPEND FOR CARRIERS UNTIL MUCH LATER. SO AT THIS TIME THEY WOULD'VE BEEN REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THESE OUT OF POCKET.
DALE PARSAN:
OH, WOW.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
DO YOU KNOW IF THAT WAS A DETRIMENT TO PEOPLE BECOMING LETTER CARRIERS AT ALL?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
GENERALLY? I DON'T THINK SO. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF IT BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A STABLE AND YOU ARE GETTING A PAYCHECK IN WAYS THAT MAYBE YOU WOULDN'T GET IN OTHER INDUSTRIES.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
IS A GOOD INVESTMENT IN YOUR CAREER.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
MM-HMM
DALE PARSAN:
OKAY. WELL, I'M, I'M VERY CURIOUS MORE ABOUT THESE ACCESSORIES. I WANNA TALK ABOUT HATS. I FEEL LIKE THEY'VE CHANGED A LOT OVER TIME. WHAT, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THEM?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES. SO WHEN POSTUM UNIFORMS CAME INTO BEING PEOPLE, EVERYONE WORE HATS, IT'S A, IT WAS A POLITENESS THING. SO INITIALLY STARTING IN ABOUT 1887 MAIL CARRIERS WERE REQUIRED TO WEAR A HAT AND THEY HAD TO START PINNING A BADGE ON THEIR HAT. SO THERE ARE CHANGES OVER TIME FOR BOTH COMFORT. SO FOR EXAMPLE, TEMPERATURE OR WEATHER AND WE HAVE THINGS LIKE THE PANAMA HAT, SO A STRAW SORT OF FLAT CAPPED HAT. WE GET SAFARI STYLE P HELMETS IN THE 20TH CENTURY. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO SORT OF, IT'S BEEN USED IN IN AREAS OF THE WORLD WHERE IT'S VERY WARM, THERE'S SORT OF A COLONIAL ASPECT TO IT. SO THERE'S FASHION ELEMENTS SORT OF AS WELL. WE GET FUR CAPS FOR WINTER SOMETHING WE HAVE WITH THE POSTAL MUSEUM. WE HAVE FUR GLOVES AS WELL AS FUR HATS. WE HAVE SOME BARE SKIN GLOVES THERE. SO THINK ABOUT IF YOU'RE UP NORTH OR IF YOU'RE ON ALASKA YOU KNOW, A FUR HAT MIGHT BE REALLY NICE TO HAVE EVENTUALLY YOU GET NYLON MESH CAPS FOR SUMMER. SO WE START TO SEE MORE CASUAL HATS. AND WE ALSO GET FOR WOMEN A VERY SHORT-LIVED BERET THAT WAS CONSIDERED VERY JAUNTY LOOKING. ALTHOUGH WE, WE HAVE ONE AT THE POSTAL MUSEUM AS WELL IT'S THIS VERY PRETTY RED WOO BERET. BUT THE WOMAN WHO DONATED IT WAS LIKE, I DID NOT ENJOY WEARING THIS WAS VERY HOT
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
YOU MENTIONED THAT ON THE HATS LETTER CARRIERS WOULD OFTEN WEAR BADGES. SO I'VE SEEN SOME PHOTOS OF SOME OF THESE OLDER BADGES AND THEY'RE, SOME OF THEM ARE REALLY BEAUTIFUL. THEY'RE VERY ORNATE METAL BADGES THAT HAVE THIS IDENTIFICATION NUMBER ON THEM. AND SOMETIMES SOME OTHER LIKE THE CITY OR THE STATE WHERE THEY'RE WORKING, BUT YOU DON'T SEE THEM ANYMORE. SO WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YEAH. THESE ARE METAL BADGES. IT'S SORT OF A PIN. AND INITIALLY WHEN THEY CAME INTO BEING IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY THE IDEA WAS TO TRY TO CUT DOWN ON FRAUD. SO EACH LETTER CARRIER WOULD HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL NUMBER AND IT WOULD BE RECORDED AT THE POST OFFICE. SO YOU'D HAVE THIS METAL BADGE THAT HAS YOUR NUMBER. IT MIGHT HAVE THE NAME OF THE CITY OR THE STATE. AND THEY, THEY, SOME OF THEM WERE QUITE ORNATE. SO YOU MIGHT HAVE LIKE A REATH STYLE. SO A BADGE THAT HAS THE NUMBER AND THEN LIKE METAL LEAVES IT OR SOME SORT OF LIKE A BEST VARIATION. SO LETTER CARRIERS ALSO HAD TO PURCHASE THESE BADGES AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. BUT THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT WAS REQUIRED FOR BOTH RURAL CARRIERS AND CITY CARRIERS. EVENTUALLY YOU KNOW, THE BADGES BECOME LESS ORNATE, WHICH IS SORT OF A SAMPLE OF LIKE TASTE CHANGING AND, YOU KNOW, JUST TRYING AS A WAY TO TRY TO SAVE MONEY JUST MAKING THEM, JUST MAKING THEM LESS ORNATE. BUT LETTER CARRIERS HAVE NOT HAD TO WEAR A BADGE SINCE 1982. IT'S JUST NO LONGER IN THEIR REQUIRED UNIFORMS.
DALE PARSAN:
ARE THERE, ARE THERE OTHER EXAMPLES OF, OF PARTS OF THE ORIGINAL POSTAL UNIFORMS THAT WE NO LONGER SEE TODAY?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES. THERE USED TO BE SERVICE STARS TO SIGNIFY A CARRIER'S LENGTH OF SERVICE. SO AFTER FIVE YEARS YOU WOULD GET ONE BLACK STAR THAT WAS WORN ON THE UNIFORM SLEEVE. AFTER 10 YEARS WAS TWO BLACK STARS. AND AS A CARRIER'S CAREER PROGRESSED THEY COULD RECEIVE SILVER AND GOLD STARS DEPENDING ON THEIR TENURE.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
SO YOU'VE TOUCHED ON HOW THE UNIFORMS HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE EARLIEST CHANGES THAT PEOPLE WOULD'VE SEEN?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
THE STRICT ATTITUDES TOWARD UNIFORMS DID SOFTEN OVER TIME? HOWEVER SO CARRIERS WON A BIG VICTORY IN 1901. WHEN THEY WERE PERMITTED TO WEAR A SHIRT WITHOUT A JACKET ON HOT DAYS
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WOW.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
LUXURIES. YES. THEY HAD TO WEAR SPECIFIC FABRICS. THEY WERE GIVEN A LIST OF FABRICS THAT THEY COULD WEAR, WHICH WERE SORT OF LIGHTWEIGHT COTTONS IN A GRAY OR A BLUE. SO THIS AS LONG AS THEY KEPT THEIR SHIRTS NEAT AND THEY STILL HAD TO WEAR A TIE IN A BELTS. BUT THEY COULD DO THEIR WORK IN GRAY COMFORT DEPENDING ON THEIR LOCATION.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WHAT ABOUT SHORTS OR DID THEY STICK WITH PANTS FOR A WHILE?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
THEY STUCK WITH PANTS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. IT WAS NOT UNTIL 1973, THAT BETTER CARRIERS COULD WEAR SHORTS. AND THIS WAS BROUGHT UP AGAIN AND AGAIN BEGINNING KIND OF IN THE 1960S AS SHORTS IN THE AMERICAN POPULATION CAME MORE ACCEPTABLE FOR CASUAL WEAR. AND YOU SEE PEOPLE IN THEM MORE FREQUENTLY, WHICH AGAIN, REALLY DOESN'T HAPPEN UNTIL LIKE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
DALE PARSAN:
SO WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT MAIL CARRIERS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING UNIFORMS THAT THE PUBLIC CAN IDENTIFY THEM. BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE OTHER EMPLOYEES WORKING AT THE POST OFFICES. DID THAT HAPPEN AROUND THE SAME? WHEN DID THEY START WEARING UNIFORMS? JUST LIKE THE MAIL CARRIERS.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
IT WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE CONTROVERSIAL BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T IN THE PUBLIC EYE. SO YOU DEFINITELY HAD SOME PUSH SOME EARLY PUSHBACK FROM POSTAL CLERKS. SO FOR INSTANCE, IN 1877 WHICH WAS GOING BACK QUITE A WHILE THE NEW YORK POSTMASTER WANTED HIS POSTAL CLERKS AND SUPERINTENDENTS TO WEAR UNIFORMS BECAUSE HE FELT THAT IT HAD BEEN A GOOD WAY TO REPRESENT THE POST OFFICE TO THE PUBLIC. AND HE THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP DISTINGUISH THEM FROM CUSTOMERS WHO WERE VISITING THE POST OFFICE AS WELL AS KEEPING UNAUTHORIZED PEOPLE OUT OF THE AREA WHERE POST EMPLOYEES ARE WORKING, BECAUSE JUST IMAGINE PEOPLE GOING IN, IF EVERYONE'S WEARING THE SAME THING, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHO WORKS THERE? SO SUPERINTENDENTS DIDN'T REALLY SEEM TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, BUT CLERKS REALLY OBJECTED. THEY SAID THAT WHY SHOULD THEY WEAR UNIFORMS? THE PUBLIC RARE SAW THEM. AND HONESTLY DOESN'T SAY THIS IN THE NEWSPAPER PAPER ARTICLE, BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE COST OF HAVING TO BUY THEMSELVES NEW CLOTHING, BECAUSE IF YOU'VE ALREADY GOT CLOTHES YOU CAN WEAR, WHY DO YOU WANNA BUY NEW ONES? SO TO KEEP THE PIECE, THE POSTMASTER BACKS DOWN AND THE RULE ENDS OF APPLYING TO SUPERINTENDENTS ONLY, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A VERY SIMILAR STORY ABOUT 10 YEARS LATER IN CHICAGO, RIGHT AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, THE MASTER WANTED HIS CLERKS TO WEAR UNIFORMS. AND THE CLERKS REBELLED APPARENTLY OPENLY REBELLED. AND THIS LED TO A NUMBER OF PUBLIC TALKS AND THEY SAID AGAIN THEY WERE RARELY SEEN IN PUBLIC. AND THEY ACTUALLY POINTED OUT THAT THERE WERE MANY WOMEN WHO WORKED AS CLERKS WHO COULD NOT WEAR DELIVERY ANYWAYS, BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT HAVE APPLIED TO WOMEN. THEY, MOST OF THEM WORKED WITHOUT A COAT ON AND THEIR SHIRT SLEEVES WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD'VE BEEN CONSIDERED FAIRLY IMPROPER IN THE PUBLIC. SO THEY WANTED TO BE MORE COMFORTABLE.
DALE PARSAN:
SO WE, WE TOUCHED EARLIER ABOUT HOW THE RULES AT THE TIME WEREN'T REALLY GEARED TOWARDS WOMEN WEARING UNIFORMS, BUT AS MORE AND MORE WOMEN STARTED WORKING FOR THE POSTAL SERVICE, HOW DID THAT IMPACT UNIFORMS?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
SO IT DOES TAKE A WHILE FOR WOMEN TO SORT OF GET THEIR OWN UNIFORMS. BUT IT, IT FORCES IT FORCES SOME CHANGES. THERE WERE ACTUALLY A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN IN WAYS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NOT EXPECT. THERE WERE PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO WORKED OUTSIDE OF CITIES. SO IF YOU WERE A RURAL DELIVERY CARRIER RURAL FREE DELIVERY COMES INTO BEING AN 1896. YOU KNOW, WOMEN RAN POST OFFICES, THEY MIGHT WORK AS A CARRIER AND GIRLS DID WANT TO CARRY LETTERS. SO FOR INSTANCE IN 1894 THE SITUATION FOR WOMEN WAS SORT OF UNFORTUNATE. THERE'S A LETTER FROM A WOMAN WHO WANTS TO BE A LETTER CARRIER THE ARTICLE SORT OF SPECULATES ON WHAT WOMEN'S UNIFORMS MIGHT LOOK LIKE IF SHE WERE A CARRIER. AND IT'S VERY FOCUSED ON LOOKS. SO THE AUTHOR IMAGINES THAT A UNIFORM FOR A BLUE EYE PINK CHEEK, BLONDE THAT'S BLUE WOULD BE FAIRLY CHARMING, BUT FOR A SAL BRUNETTE, THE ARTICLE SUGGESTS SOMETHING MORE PRONOUNCED IN COLOR. AND OBVIOUSLY THE POINT OF A UNIFORM ISN'T NECESSARILY THE SAME AS WHAT ONE MIGHT WEAR IN THEIR FREE TIME. AND WE SEE A LOT OF COMMENTS LIKE THIS SURROUNDING WOMEN IN UNIFORMS. BUT THIS DOES NOT DETER THEM.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
THAT'S INCREDIBLE. AND IT'S AMAZING HOW FAR WE'VE COME SINCE THOSE DAYS. I REMEMBER IN OUR EPISODE WITH JENNY LYNCH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WOMEN IN THE POSTAL SERVICE, SHE MENTIONED THAT THESE EARLY UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS OF PANTS, PARTICULARLY FOR THE CITY LETTER CARRIERS KIND OF PREVENTED WOMEN AT THAT TIME FROM WORKING. SO I KNOW YOU MENTIONED THAT A LOT OF THEM WORKED AS RURAL CARRIERS OR IN OTHER FUNCTIONS WITHIN THE POSTAL SERVICE. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER STORIES OF, OF HOW WOMEN WERE ABLE TO OVERCOME THESE BARRIERS TO THEIR EMPLOYMENT? YES.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YEAH, THE, THE PANTS THING, WOULD'VE BEEN A REAL ISSUE FOR A VERY LONG TIME. BUT ONE OF MY FAVORITE ARTICLES AND STORIES THAT I'VE SEEN COMES FROM LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY IN 1902 A WOMAN WHO HAD BEEN RUNNING A A POST OFFICE THERE, MS. HELEN KRAMER WAS RUNNING A SMALL POST OFFICE AND THEN PUSHED FOR A RURAL DELIVERY ROUTE. AND SHE ACTUALLY WON THAT BID AND EARNED THE RIGHT TO DELIVER MAIL ALONG THIS RURAL ROUTE. AND TO DO THIS, EVEN THOUGH SHE DID NOT NEED A UNIFORM SHE ACTUALLY MADE HER OWN, SHE CAME UP WITH A PATTERN AND WENT OUT AND BOUGHT THE CLOTH AND SEWED IT HERSELF. AND SHE DETAILS THE ARTICLE, HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO FIND THE RIGHT COLOR CLOTH AND THE RIGHT FIT. AND THE ARTICLE AGAIN, SORT OF SUGGESTS THAT IF WOMEN WANT TO BECOME RURAL LETTER CARRIERS, THEY COULD REACH OUT TO MS. KRAMER FOR ADVICE ABOUT THEIR UNIFORMS, BECAUSE THERE WERE NO OTHER REAL OPTIONS.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HER UNIFORM THAT SHE MADE WOULD'VE LOOKED LIKE? WOULD IT HAVE BEEN A LONG SKIRT WITH THE CODE OR SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THAT?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES. IT WOULD'VE BEEN IF THINK ABOUT KIND OF THE GIBSON GIRL PICTURES, LIKE A BLOUSE WITH SORT OF LARGER SLEEVES AND THEN NIPPED IN AT THE WAIST AND THEN PROBABLY A LONG A LONG WOOL SKIRT OF BLUE GRAY AND I THINK A JACKET OVER THAT AS WELL. AND THAT TELLS ME THAT SHE WAS A FAIRLY TALENTED SEAMSTRES TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT PATTERN AND DO THAT TAILORING HERSELF. SO ON TOP OF TAKING CARE OF HER INVALID MOTHER AND RUNNING THIS POST OFFICE AND DOING THIS ROUTE, SHE ALSO HAD THESE OTHER TALENTS AS WELL.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
SO DID THE UNIFORM POLICY EVENTUALLY CHANGE TO ACCOMMODATE WOMEN?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
IT DOES EVENTUALLY, YES, BUT IT'S NOT REALLY UNTIL THE 1960S, WHEN UNIFORM SPECIFICALLY FOR WOMEN START TO COME INTO BEING. SO BEFORE, BEFORE THE 1960S WOMEN WOULD JUST BUY MEN'S UNIFORMS AND TRY TO MAKE THEM WORK YOU KNOW, EITHER ADJUST THEM IF THEY HAD TO, OR JUST DEAL WITH THEM. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF YOU FOR ANY WOMEN LISTENING, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO BUY MEN'S CLOTHING AND GET THOSE TO FIT, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY AN EASY ONE TO ONE COMPARISON. SO I'M BEGINNING IN 1964 THE POST OFFICE FORMS A PARTNERSHIP WITH NAIC LABORATORIES, WHICH IS A RESEARCH FACILITY WHERE ARMY UNIFORMS WERE TESTED. SO THEY START DOING QUALITY CONTROL TESTS FOR POSTAL UNIFORMS AS WELL. AND THE SPECS THEY COME UP WITH ARE MEANT FOR MANUFACTURERS AS WELL AS POSTAL EMPLOYEES TO GET GOOD QUALITY.
AND PART OF THIS PARTNERSHIP MEANS THEY START TESTING UNIFORMS SPECIFICALLY FOR WOMEN. AND IN FACT THERE ARE NEWSPAPER ARTICLES AND THE POST OFFICE EVEN ISSUES A PRESS RELEASE IN 1964 STATING THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A FASHION SHOW SHOWING OFF THE WOMEN'S, THE NEW UNIFORMS FOR WOMEN THAT ARE COMPLETELY TAILORED AND REDESIGNED AND QUOTE PRACTICAL AS WELL AS I PLEASING I, SO WE MAIL LETTER CARRIERS AND WINDOW CLERKS ARE ALSO GETTING REDESIGNED JACKETS AND MORE COMFORTABLE UNIFORMS AT THIS POINT, BUT IT'S REALLY THE EMPHASIS ON, ON WOMEN'S ON WOMEN'S UNIFORMS THAT THEY'RE PUSHING. SO THIS INVOLVES SLACKS THAT ARE MADE FOR WOMEN AND FITTED FOR WOMEN A SKIRT AND A TAILORED SHIRT DISTINCTLY FOR WOMEN. SO FROM THAT POINT ON YOU KNOW, YOU SEE YOU SEE THINGS THAT ARE FOR, FOR MEN AND FOR WOMEN. SO FOR INSTANCE, JACKETS THAT ARE TAILORED DIFFERENT HATS FOR WOMEN LIKE THE BERET HAD, I MENTIONED EARLIER, EVEN THOUGH THAT WASN'T A HUGE HIT IN 1969, THERE IS A PILL BOX HAT MEANT FOR WOMEN. AND BY THE 1970S, AS I MENTIONED EVERYONE COULD WEAR BURMUDA SHORTS. SO WE, WE CONTINUE TO SEE CHANGES. PERHAPS ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IS THAT IN FEBRUARY OF 1992 MATERNITY WEAR BECOMES AVAILABLE. SO A LONG SLEEVE AND SHORT SLEEVE BLOW SLACKS AND A JUMPER. AND THAT IS HUGE.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
ALISON YOU'VE MENTIONED THAT THE POSTAL MUSEUM HAS SOME UNIFORM ITEMS IN ITS COLLECTION. CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING TO BRING THIS ASPECT OF POSTAL HISTORY TO LIFE?
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES. SO ONE WAY THAT WE ARE HOPING TO EXPAND UPON WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE IS WE'RE CURRENTLY WORKING ON AN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT THAT FOCUSES ON POSTAL WORKWEAR. WE WANT TO DOCUMENT THE EXPERIENCES OF CURRENT AND PAST POSTAL WORKERS. AND THIS ISN'T JUST LETTER CARRIERS. YOU KNOW, WE'RE INTERESTED IN ANYONE LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A SET UNIFORM. WE'RE ALSO INTERESTED IN SPEAKING WITH MANUFACTURERS AND PRODUCERS AND THINKING ABOUT THINGS OF THINK ABOUT ISSUES LIKE HOW WORKWEAR IS DESIGNED AND HOW IT'S PRODUCED HOW IT'S SELECTED HOW WORKERS CHOOSE AND ADAPT CLOTHING TO FIT THEIR DAILY NEEDS. SO ALSO NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT CLOTHING, BUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WEAR WORKWEAR OR THE UNIFORM. AND IDEALLY WE'D LOVE TO GET A REALLY DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR THIS PROJECT. SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS JUST SORT OF GETTING OFF THE GROUND. WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON IT DURING THE, THE PANDEMIC. SO THAT'S OBVIOUSLY MADE INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE DIFFICULT. BUT YES, THAT IS, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE COSTUME STUDIES PROGRAM AT NYU ACTUALLY.
DALE PARSAN:
WELL, I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING HOW ALL THAT PANS OUT ALISON, BEFORE WE WRAP THE EPISODE UP. LAST QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE FUTURE OF POSTAL UNIFORMS? WILL IT GET MORE CASUAL FOR THIS.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
I THINK SO. YOU KNOW, ISN'T SOMETHING THAT I AM PRIVY TO
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DEVELOPMENTS IN FABRIC TECHNOLOGY SINCE THE DAYS OF THE WOOL THREE PIECE SUITS. SO HOPEFULLY THEY CAN GET SOME GREAT SWEAT WICKING MATERIALS AND IMPROVE THEIR COMFORT.
DALE PARSAN:
OH, THAT'D BE GREAT.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
YES, DEFINITELY. YOU KNOW, WHATEVER IS INTRODUCED NEXT I'M SURE THEY WILL KEEP REFLECTING WHAT'S RELEVANT IN SOCIETY. AND I WOULD LOVE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW WHAT WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE WEARING AND, AND HOW THAT REPRESENTS A CHANGING POSTAL SERVICE.
DALE PARSAN:
ALISON I'VE REALLY ENJOYED THIS CONVERSATION, BUT I UNDERSTAND FOR OUR LISTENERS, IT MIGHT BE A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO GET THAT MENTAL IMAGE OF SOME OF THESE YOU UNIFORMS. SO WE'RE ACTUALLY PLANNING ON PUTTING OUT A BLOG POST FROM THE PODCAST ITSELF ON POSTER UNIFORMS, WHERE THE AUDIENCES ARE GONNA BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY SEE THE IMAGES, STYLES, ACCESSORIES COVERED HERE WITH US TODAY.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
GREAT. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THAT TOO. BECAUSE I THINK YES, WITH CLOTHING, YOU KNOW, I CAN DESCRIBE IT OR PEOPLE CAN GUY THAT, BUT YOU, I ALWAYS WANNA SEE IMAGES AND I, I HOPE HOPEFULLY LISTENERS DO AS WELL.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
LISTENERS CAN ALSO VISIT THE NATIONAL POSTAL MUSEUM HERE IN WASHINGTON, DC.
DALE PARSAN:
ONE OF MY FAVORITE MUSEUMS.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
ALISON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
ALISON BAZYLINSKI:
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
DALE PARSAN:
ALL RIGHT. IT'S TIME FOR, DID YOU KNOW, THIS IS A CHANCE FOR US TO SHARE SOME INTERESTING DETAILS ABOUT THE POSTAL SERVICE THAT MOST PEOPLE PROBABLY DON'T KNOW. YASMIN WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE LEAD ON THIS ONE?
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
SURE. LET'S THROW IT BACK ALMOST 20 YEARS TO EARLY 2003, YOU THOUGHT I WAS GONNA TO SAY THE NINETIES, BUT 2003 WAS 20 YEARS AGO. THE TERM PODCAST WAS MORE THAN A YEAR AWAY FROM BEING COINS. MP3 PLAYERS WERE JUST CATCHING ON AND CDS WERE STILL THE MAIN WAY OF LISTENING TO ALL OF THE GREAT NEW MUSIC COMING OUT.
DALE PARSAN:
OH MY GOSH. SIMPLER TIMES.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
IT REALLY WAS. AND ONE OF THE NEW CD RELEASES THAT YEAR WAS FROM A GROUP THAT HAD AN INTERESTING NAME.
DALE PARSAN:
LET ME GUESS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BAND, THE POSTAL SERVICE, RIGHT?
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
THAT'S RIGHT. THE INDIE POP TRIO RELEASED THEIR DEBUT ALBUM THAT FEBRUARY IT'S UPBEAT ELECTRONIC LEAD SINGLE SUCH GREAT HEIGHTS SPENT 11 WEEKS ON THE HOT 100 CHART AND ENJOYED ENDURING POPULARITY THROUGHOUT THE MID 2000s.
DALE PARSAN:
AND WHAT A GREAT SONG.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
YEAH, WELL, THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE WASN'T SO ENTHUSIASTIC IN AUGUST OF 2003, THEY SENT A CEASE AND DESIST LETTER CITING THE BAND NAME AS AN INFRINGEMENT ON ITS TRADE ART EVENTUALLY THOUGH US P GAVE AND ALLOWED THEM TO USE THE NAME IN EXCHANGE FOR PROMOTIONAL EFFORTS AND A PERFORMANCE AT ITS ANNUAL NATIONAL EXECUTIVE CONFERENCE.
DALE PARSAN:
OH MAN, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN A COOL CONFERENCE. SO WERE THE MEMBERS BIG FANS OF THE POSTAL SERVICE? HOW'D THAT NAME COME ABOUT?
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WELL, IT'S TWO MAIN MEMBERS WERE ALREADY BUSY PER FORMERS WHEN THEY FORMED SINGER BEN GIBBARD WITH THE INDIE BAND DEATH CAB FOR CUTIE AND PRODUCER, JIMMY TAMARILLO WITH HIS ELECTRONIC MUSIC PROJECT. DIDN'T TELL SINCE THEY COULDN'T ALWAYS GET TOGETHER IN PERSON, THEY WOULD OFTEN COLLABORATE ON TRACKS BY SENDING AUDIO TAPES BACK AND FORTH THROUGH THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE.
DALE PARSAN:
OKAY. SO ANOTHER UNIQUE WAY TO USE THE POSTAL SERVICE. I THINK IT'S MY TURN. I'M GONNA RIFF OFF OF ONE OF YOUR PREVIOUS DIDOS AND SEGUE INTO MINE. YOU KNOW, OVER THE YEARS, THE POSTAL SERVICE HAS HELPED PEOPLE TRANSPORT, A WHOLE HOST OF ODD ITEMS, THINGS YOU STILL CAN'T SEND DIGITALLY. WE TALKED IN AN EARLIER EPISODE ABOUT HOW SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY MAILED CHILDREN DURING THE TWO YEARS OF PARCEL POST SERVICE. THIS TIME. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT A CHAMELEON.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
A CHAMELEON?
DALE PARSAN:
YEP. IN DECEMBER OF 1954, THE POSTMASTER IN ORLANDO, FLORIDA RECEIVED A LETTER STATING…..DEAR SIR, I'M SENDING YOU MY CHAMELEON BECAUSE I LIVE IN FOSTORIA, OHIO, AND IT'S TOO COLD FORM HERE. WILL YOU PLEASE LET HIM LOOSE? PS, COULD HE LET ME KNOW IF HE ARRIVES? OKAY.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
AW. DID HE MAKE IT?
DALE PARSAN:
HE DID THE SENDER GOT A LETTER BACK SHORTLY AFTER FROM THE POSTMASTER INFORMING HIM THAT HIS LIZARD DID INDEED SURVIVE THE JOURNEY AND THAT HE HAD BEEN IMMEDIATELY RELEASED ON POST OFFICE GRANTS.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
THAT'S CUTE. THAT'S ALSO GOT TO BE ONE OF THE STRANGE THINGS EVER MAILED.
DALE PARSAN:
IT'S HONESTLY A CLOSE COMPETITION WHERE YOU LOOK AT HISTORY. ONE GUY ACTUALLY MAILED PART OF A BUILDING THROUGH THE POSTAL SERVICE.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
YOU MEAN A MODEL OF BUILDING?
DALE PARSAN:
NO, I MEAN AN ACTUAL BUILDING IN 1916, A BUSINESSMAN DECIDED TO BUILD A NEW BANK IN VERNAL, UTAH. HE WANTED TO USE THE BEST MATERIALS. SO HE HAD 15,000 BRICKS MAILED IN 50 POUND PACKAGES FROM THE SALT LAKE PRESS BRICK COMPANY, 127 MILES FROM VERNAL.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
I FEEL BAD FOR THE MAIL CARRIER ON THAT ROUTE.
DALE PARSAN:
WELL, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, MAILING TONS OF BRICKS TO A SMALL POST OFFICE CAUSED A LOT OF PROBLEMS. ALTHOUGH ABOUT 37 AND A HALF, TONS OF BRICKS WERE EVENTUALLY DELIVERED. THE ISSUE WAS ESCALATED TO THE POSTMASTER GENERAL AT THE TIME HE AND HIS STAFF MODIFIED THE RULES TO LIMIT THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF PARCEL POST THAT COULD BE SHIPPED IN ONE DAY.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WELL, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STILL MAIL CHAMELEONS?
DALE PARSAN:
I ACTUALLY DO KNOW THE POSTAL SERVICE CAN HANDLE SOME FORMS OF LIVE ANIMALS. SO MAYBE.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WE'LL HAVE TO LOOK INTO THAT.
DALE PARSAN:
WELL, THAT DOES IT FOR THIS EDITION OF DID YOU KNOW?
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
DEAL. WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT OUR CONVERSATION WITH ALISON?
DALE PARSAN:
I THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT CONVERSATION. WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL GUEST, BUT I I'LL BE HONEST. IT'S GONNA SOUND CHILD. I REALLY LIKE THE IDEA OF LETTER CARRIERS WEARING CAPES
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
I COULD SEE THAT FOR ME. I, I REALLY ENJOYED HEARING ABOUT HOW THE UNIFORMS HAVE CHANGED WITH THE TIMES AND ESPECIALLY THESE STORIES OF WOMEN BEING INNOVATIVE WITH THEIR UNIFORMS TO WORK FOR THE USPS. I WOULDN'T SAY NO TO A REVERSIBLE CAPE THOUGH.
DALE PARSAN:
I LIKE IT.
YASMIN DIGIULIO:
WELL, THAT WRAPS UP THIS EPISODE OF MAIL IN IT. DON'T BRING AT TO SUBSCRIBE, TO MAIL IN IT, WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCAST TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T MISS THE NEXT EPISODE AND FOLLOW ALONG ON;
INSTAGRAM https://www.instagram.com/uspostalservice/
TWITTER https://twitter.com/usps
FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/USPS/